Wednesday, July 14, 2010

What would you do? #139 - Holding KK, having no idea where I am in the hand

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official Hand History Converter

CO: $52.30
BTN: $73.40
SB: $51.00 - 15 / 12 / 25% steal / 8% 3bet / 2.0 aggression factor @ 74 hands
BB: $39.90 - 29 / 8 / 14% steal / 0% 3bet / 2.5 aggression factor @ 66 hands

Hero (UTG): $51.70
UTG+1: $16.35
UTG+2: $67.90
MP1: $50.75
MP2: $50.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG with Kc Ks
Hero calls $0.50, 6 folds, SB calls $0.25, BB checks
Changing it up a bit; I'm looking for CO, who has been raising wide (25/20) to raise for me so I can re-raise and press.  No dice.

Flop: ($1.50) 5c 6s 4s (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $1.50, SB calls $1.50, BB calls $1.50
I think I'm ahead on this draw-heavy flop, but I'm going to be cautious.

Turn: ($6.00) 3c (3 players)
SB bets $5, BB folds, Hero ???

Click to see results

Hero folds
Is there a point in risking a bunch of money when I am up against any two cards?  A 4 straight is out there, flush draws all over the place, and he could very well have 2 pair already.  What do you think?  Too nitty?

Final Pot: $6.00
SB wins $5.70
(Rake: $0.30)


  1. the fold is fine, but it looks like you have developed some FPS (fancy play syndrome)

  2. not nitty at all. Do you beat anything that he's potting for value right now?

    If you enter a limped pot kings, you must be able to easily let them go when this type of board shows up.

  3. @Matt- Exactly why I let it go.

    @Anonymous- Not true "FPS." I'm trying to mix up my game a bit. I want to see how people react to different lines. Clearly, I'm becoming not a fan of the slow played PF hands.

    My thought, though, is that I've seen a lot of players get paid on hands they wouldn't otherwise get paid when the flip over a big overpair.

    BTW, the 50nl games seem to have taken a turn where the players are becoming a lot better than they used to be; I think it's necessary to take non-traditional lines with *SOME* of these players.

  4. nothing wrong with mixing up your play. My challenge here is that I NEVER open limp. Ever. I may follow a chain of limpers with 56s on the button, but if there is action to me and I'm playing, then I'm raising. So this open limp would send off alarm bells to my opponents who pay attention (like in my home game).

    I would also never limp behind others with a big pair, because I am a big fan of punishing limpers with a wide range (any 2 broadway, most aces, any pair), and I need to balance my punish limpers range to actually include monster hands. I want to have kings the 4th time I've raised up the same limper in a session and he's taking a stand with QJs

  5. This is more of an exception play, rather than the rule. However, if I'm UTG limping, I'm looking for a later player to raise for me and thin the herd. Particularly terrible is the fact that the blinds both called - they can hold literally ATC.

    I look at it this way, though: I was able to get away from the hand and it cost me $1.50 in post flop play. If I raised PF, it likely would have netted me $.75 total. Easy to say in retrospect, given every non-blind folded, but I like having a concealed hand like this. The only drawback to slowplay is that you have to be sure you can get away from it.

  6. limping sucks because there's a fish in the BB who will overcall your raises too wide and even when the CO does raise by 3betting him you're announcing that you have KK+ and you'll only win his raise and the blinds really often. Plus if he's bad enough to spew vs your limp 3bet he'll probably be spewy in raised pots postflop anyway.

    If you want your range to be more concealed (and to be honest not a ton of regs at 50nl are really going to pay attention to it carefully) then start opening more hands like 98s-JTs, especially on soft tables with fish in the blinds.

  7. If you EXPECT a late position opponent to raise or squeeze than I agree with you that the proper play will be to limp with the intention of re-raising for value, before the flop. You musn't use this liberally, but rather have evidence to support that someone will raise/squeeze. However, this play is generally transparant to solid players and if they defend against you, most of their range should be smaller pocket pairs to set mine. Thus, I wouldn't get fancy by putting in a small 3-bet; a 4x raise will be fine.

    As far as the flop goes, I agree that it's pretty nasty for your hand and multi-way. It's reasonable for someone to have 7x, two-pair or a set, which doesn't mean that the villain couldn't have 88, 99, AcXc or AsXs either. Remember most players don't play as well as you do so they could potentially be overplaying they're hand.

    This looks like a classic example of spending dollars to try to win nickels and dimes. I'm not saying to roll-over and not try to stab/get thin value out of smaller pots, but Matt Tag is right that anybody that knows the basic rules of poker, probably won't be potting here with one pair.

  8. "3betting him you're announcing that you have KK+ and you'll only win his raise and the blinds really often" - I actually plan to flat OOP given there are not a host of overcallers. If we wind up HU, I'm going to flat OOP against my raiser. Assuming raiser is aggro enough, I'm expecting at least a flop cbet out of the deal which I will check raise or c/r the turn.

    However, it's funny that you mention the limp -> raise as announcing AA/KK... I've been toying with that line as well lately, were I limp SCs and 3bet the raiser. Not saying I'm making this play often by any means, but against a competent player, I've been finding that they auto-fold their raise with the same line of reasoning that you stated above.

    "start opening more hands like 98s-JTs" - been doing that... I run around a 23/18.

  9. I think the FPS is assuming a 25/20would raise after a UTG limp. It really depends on your image at the table, otherwise a 25/20 is unlikely attack blindly after multi limps, including one UTG.

    Folding is fine.


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