Monday, June 7, 2010

What would you do? #117 - Overpair facing flop shove and flop call

Clear fold, right?  Just surprised at the results:

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $66.05
UTG+1: $25.35 - 20/7 / 25% steal / 7.7% 3bet / 41 hands
MP1: $25.00
MP2: $35.25
CO: $20.00
BTN: $25.00 - 0/0 / 0% 3bet / 8 hands
SB: $24.50
BB: $25.35

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with Qd Qs
Hero raises to $0.85, UTG+1 calls $0.85, 3 folds, BTN calls $0.85, 2 folds
I hate being out of position with 2 flatters, but we go the flop 3-way...

Flop: ($2.90) 5d 6c 2s (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.75, BTN raises to $4, Hero calls $4, UTG+1 raises to $24.50 all in, BTN calls $20.15 all in, Hero ???

Click to see results

Hero folds
Weird action, but not enough to fold to BTN's raise.  When UTG+1 [overbets for value LOL] shoves, I don't think anyone can call it, can they?  What hands do you put him on?

I'm thinking set over set situation, not even factoring in the remote possibility of what the guy has!  This has to be a set of deuces vs. a set of fives or something like that!

Turn: ($55.20) Jc (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: ($55.20) Kd (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $55.20
UTG+1 shows 4h 3c (a straight, Deuce to Six) - WTF?  Over call [first in] with 43o?  LOL!!!
BTN shows Td Ts (a pair of Tens)
UTG+1 wins $52.45
(Rake: $2.75)


  1. total guessing game. you could be up against 7s and 9s here, or 78 and TT, or a set of 5s and a set of 6s. I think I would assume one of these two guys has hit a set and let it go.

    NOTE: I wrote this before reading result (yay me). 34 is funny, and the shove is unusual, but it's also kind of ingenious on this board because of all the pocket overpairs that will have trouble folding.

  2. WTF? Over call [first in] with 43o? LOL!!!

    They say there's no accounting for taste, and, I guess, there's no accounting for what donks will play.

  3. It's just weird that a 20/7 would overcall with 34o in UTG+1 pre flop... Even 34s is weird. 45s or 56s or even 45o or 56o give so many more straight possibilities if you're determined to overcall, but 34o? You really need to hit that flop perfectly [like he did] in order to get paid there. The question is: why make that kind of move when you're just setting yourself up for a squeeze play from people acting after? I guess at 25NL, people aren't really thinking about that?

  4. I'm playing mainly 25NL - not much squeezing going on there.

    One of the problems is that some of the players are SO bad (I played on a table with an 80/16 yesterday), that they will call most preflop raises, and THEN call the squeeze also. And now you've got a bloated pot that you don't want to lose, holding A8 (or whatev).

    Once I have a player this bad at my table, my lines lean far away from bluff and much more towards value.

  5. I'm also kinda shocked that I didn't see a 3bet from the BTN holding an overpair as well - where he not only did not 3bet me PF, but was willing to call a stack off with his overpair on the flop... If I had shoved PF, would he have called me too? What difference does his hand make PF as opposed to flop+ if he's going to stack off any under card board?

  6. While I do find it bizzare that UTG+1 showed up with 34o let's be clear on a few things:

    1) Villain is a 20/7 suggesting that he only raises 1/3rd of the pots he enters. This means he HAS to see a lot of flops and is probably not positionally aware. While it's still hard to conceive why he would play 34o from UTG+1 when a UTG has opened for pot, we must remember that this player is a fish and his range is almost as wide here as anywhere else. It just so happens that this hand is in this fishes range in this position. Or maybe he just misclicked.

    2) We're playing deep stack poker [100+ BB] and a lot of players at this level will defer to ATC [any two cards] theory. There is a fine line between this being mathematically correct and a leak and I wouldn't expect a 20/7 at $25NL to understand this concept. The greatest level of thinking that I would expect from a player in this game is... "UTG opened for pot; I have 2 cards; if I hit the flop hard, I could stack him"...

    3) Regarding the villain with 10's that stacked off postflop and opted not to 3-bet...I believe there is merit to flatting the button with 10's since this is a spot where he is unlikely to fold out any hands better than his, will fold out a lot of hands that are worse, thus resulting in losing a lot of value from the hand. However, Meister's argument also has a lot of merit--if you're willing to stack off on a low flop, why not begin building the pot for value pre-flop?

  7. Loretta- Normally, I'd be check / raising the flop but given the action I'm facing, I don't think I can fold the BTN raise, but I definitely don't want to get it all in in this spot either. However, what I should have considered is the fact that stacks are already set up to go in by the turn, given the pot size if the UTG+1 flats (the pot would be around $20).


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