Thursday, June 3, 2010

Those poor little 25NL players...

Note that we're 300BB+ deep...

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official Hand History Converter

BB: $17.52
UTG: $112.87
UTG+1: $32.33
UTG+2: $11.90
MP1: $33.17
MP2: $29.80
Hero (CO): $79.49
BTN: $58.88
SB: $24.95

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with Js Kc
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, 3 folds, UTG calls $1.25, MP1 calls $1.25

Flop: ($4.85) 9h Qd 7s (3 players)
UTG bets $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, Hero raises to $3.75, UTG calls $3.50, MP1 folds
What a bullsh*t bet out on the flop.  I want to take down the pot if possible.  If nothing else, I want to pare down the field.

Turn: ($12.60) Td (2 players)
UTG bets $5, Hero raises to $74.24 all in, UTG calls $69.24
Overbet for value, anyone?  He actually thought about the action for a few seconds before calling. 

River: ($161.08) 6h (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $161.08
UTG shows Tc Qh (two pair, Queens and Tens)
Hero shows Js Kc (a straight, King high)
Hero wins $158.08
(Rake: $3.00)


  1. love this hand.

    Let's play make believe so you can teach me something about deep stack play. Let's say this exact hand plays out in the same way, except you are holding AsAc instead of JsKc. You still iso-raise preflop, you still raise bullsh*t minbet on flop.

    What do you do on the turn? Do you still stack off?

  2. When you're deepstacked, you cannot get away with the same hand requirements as you do when your medium or shallow-stacked. In other words, [some of the time] TPTK is good enough for a stack off against some players with 100BB effective stacks. However, TPTK is rarely (if ever(!!!)) good enough to stack off ~300 BBs. The deeper the stacks, the stronger the hand requirements.

    TBH, I am rarely getting stacks in with a naked AA on this board (or on most boards). Here's why: Assuming this is a fairly competent player, he does not want to get stacks in (particularly 300BB stacks) with top pair. If he is willing to commit stacks, it's with a hand much stronger than single pair hands. Like in the example, he's committing with a two-pair hand, which is exactly what I put him on (also a set) (hence the HUGE raise, which is the only reasonable way I saw to get such deep stacks in). The rule I follow is the deeper the stack, the stronger the hand. There are points at which I can't possibly make a call on a hand without the darn-near-nuts for the simple fact of the pot being too large to lose if I make the wrong call - a 3 buy in loss in one hand is a very large swing.

    As far as the way the hand played out: I'm clearly repping AA-KK throughout in this hand, which is why I got the turn call. He "floats" my flop raise, looking to showdown cheaply. His plan is likely to check / call the rest of the way assuming his 3rd Queen / 2nd Ten doesn't get there - he knows that we're deep stacked enough that if he does hit his "5" outter, he's going to get implied odds much better than the pot odds I'm giving him. The overbet by me is typical of a lot of players spazzing with AA / KK [sometimes AQ] hands. He is hardly ever leading the turn without a "monster" hand - particularly with min betting and getting raised on the flop. In fact, poor play by him not to go for a check / raise on the turn if that's what he's determined to do, but a $5 lead into me is a pretty strong bet.

  3. @Poker Meister: Thanks for your detailed comment. I'm not much of a ca$h game players, so trying to digest all this.

  4. There's a huge difference between how you play depending on the stack sizes you're playing for. For example, if I have 200BB effective stacks and I'm facing a pot-sized raise on the flop with a gutshot... let's say I call a PF 3x raise in any position, giving the pot 3BB + 3BB + 1BB + .5BB = 7.5BB going into the flop. Even if the dude bets pot here (i.e. 7.5BB), and I clearly put him on Aces (giving me 4 outs as my only outs) I can profitably call and chase my 16% odds given the HUGE implied odds of getting stacks in on the turn or river.

    Knock effective stacks down to 100BB where we have 90BB remaining after the 7.5BB call, and that 16% shot is looking a whole lot less enticing... it's a correct fold.

    It works the same way in tournaments, but in reverse... you're usually short stacked along with the rest of the field (rarely, do I believe, are players playing 100BB+ stacks after the first few levels). It is mostly incorrect to call raises of 3x with suited connectors given <30BB effective stacks, unless you are the chip lead by a huge margin (not too familiar with Independent Chip Model (ICM) theory).

    In fact, I find myself wondering about that exact theory during the TOC recently held. I became short stacked (12BBs) and was holding Ax in MP1 position... is it correct to open shove there? At what point do you start to open shove your Ax, broadways, < 55 hands? The results worked out for me, but I'm not sure whether, for example, I should be calling a shove with AQo from late position (window was a Q, but I was AIPF against VinNay's AK). Cash game, this is a situation where it's "no big deal, rebuy..." but tourneys are a different beast altogether... one which I'm no expert by any stretch.

  5. there are two ways to answer your A-rag open shove question. If you are close to the bubble, you use SNGoWizard to plug in calling ranges and see your equity.

    If you are NOT close to the bubble, then you can use a form of sklansky chubukov numbers to figure out unexploitable shoves. I have set this up on a spreadsheet - you input your stack size, BB size, and how many players behind you. It shows you all the hands you can unexploitably shove.

    email me at mtagliaf - at - gmail if you would be interested in a copy of the (Excel) spreadsheet.

  6. Stacks are so deep that shoving the nuts probably only has to be called a small percentage to be profitable, but i'm wondering how much value you're losing if instead you raise the turn and bet the river. You'll get called more often generally, and it might be more profitable against his possible range. For example, you said you'd never stack here so you lose alot of value from the hands that will call bets, but not stack.

    Great to shove the nuts and get called!

    When you call a bet on the flop to see the turn, you're only @8% for a gutshot, not 16%, unless you're certain that he's not betting the turn if you miss.


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