Monday, May 24, 2010

What would you do? #110 - Facing very coordinated flop from 4bet pre-flop

Sorry for the break from "Back to Basics," but I haven't had time to write an article on the next subject.  For now, here is a WWYD - hopefully I'll be able write an entry for next Monday. 

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official Hand History Converter

SB: $44.42
Hero (BB): $25.25
UTG: $26.19
UTG+1: $41.21
UTG+2: $51.31
MP1: $27.28
MP2: $32.00
CO: $65.83 - 23/19/ 27% steal / 11.1% 3bet / 67 fold to 3bet
BTN: $33.98

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with Kd Qc
5 folds, CO raises to $0.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, CO raises to $7, Hero calls $4.50
First what would you do: this guy is aware of what a steal is.  Are you folding to his 4bet?  11.1% 3bet coupled with his steal %.  I've seen a lot of this steal re-steal.

Flop: ($14.10) Ts Qs 9s (2 players)
Hero bets $18.25 all in, CO calls $18.25
Second what would you do: Are you shoving here or check / folding or check / calling?  What is your course of action?

I really put him on a bluff 4bet and air here.  I don't want a single spade drawing to the win for free.

Turn: ($50.60) 6h (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($50.60) 9d (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $50.60
Hero shows Kd Qc (two pair, Queens and Nines)
CO shows Jc Ah (a pair of Nines)
Hero wins $48.07
(Rake: $2.53)


  1. good example of the 3bet/4bet wars. Not sure I like the CALL of the 4 bet - leaves you with an SPR of 1 postflop. Either you think he's full of crap and shove or fold.

    If you think he's full of crap (he basically was with AJo), then getting it in with TP is fine, but that's not a fun bridge to jump off on this board.

  2. @Matt - I honestly did not expect a call here (I did not want him to draw to a 4th spade and blow me off of my hand). I was happy taking the existing pot down. If he was calling, at the absolute most, I would think he shows up with the As.

  3. flatting 4-bet oop preflop is just terrrible w/ 100bb effective stacks. You're going to whiff on the flop 2/3 of the time, and be forced to continue to guess. You should either shove or fold.

    I guess, since you did hit the flop, I'd shove, but only because it is all one suit. I'd check to induce a shove from worse if it wasn't all one suit.

  4. is this a RUSH hand?

  5. I wouldn't 3-bet from the BB as I don't want to bloat a pot and play it from out of position. This probably shows why I'm not a great cash game players.

  6. Memphis - the 3bet is basically a steal b/c we think the cutoff has a high likelihood of having garbage (due to 27% steal). We're hoping he folds.

    Arguing whether we want to "waste" a hand as decent as KQ on trying to get someone to fold is another topic worthy of discussion...

  7. Let's take a step back and discuss our logic. What is the goal of our 3-bet here? Is it for value? Is it as a bluff? Do we ever expect this player to fold to a 3-bet with 100BB effective stacks and position over us?

    Second, we know the villain is 3-bet happy [assuming a relevant sample size], which makes it reasonable to assume that villain also has a wide 4-betting range, especially while on the button.

    If this player is at all positionally aware and/or running HUD software, than he should understand that you will at times 3-bet light, frequently blind steal and play back at aggressive players.

    So what was our plan when the villain decided to playback at us since we were playing back at him? How often are we calling 4-bets OOP with as Matt Tag pointed out, a very low SPR?

    At $25NL I can't think of two many situations in which I'm continuing here, unless we're playing 200BB deeps. But I applaud your reasoning for not backing down against this player, which is why I think a 5-bet is a much better line here.

  8. I think you should note when a hand is RUSH, bc I think that the frequency of stealing and re-stealing is higher than in a normal Full ring. (Would everyone agree with that?) It would also help to know how many hands you have for villain's stats.

    omgitsjoshua pretty much nails it.

    what hands are you making money from with the shove? A or K Spade draws or Q+spade may all call you without much error, but I guess lower pairs with a spade may call...

    Stack sizes dictate this play may not be optimal. Luckily he hopelessly called with 3 live outs.


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