There were two opportunities during Friday's session were I was faced with a bet /check through moment that raised quite a few eyebrows at the table. Normally, I don't think too much of what my opponents think of my play but at least one spot is perhaps controversial.
The first was the easy of the two: I am in the BB with As9s in a limped 5-way board of A 3 5. It had been checked through and the turn was a 4. I led pot for $10 and got a singe caller who did not seem very happy... the scowl on his face pretty much told me he had a naked Ace. With A9, I'm not sure I'm ahead here, so I bet $30 when the river is a 9 and I river top two. Snap call by villain and he shows A 7 for a way behind pair regardless... I caught myself wondering, though, whether I would be getting value on the river if I hadn't turned aces up. I still think about that.
Here's the more interesting hand, though: I limp QdTd from the button against a two loose players, one tilted and one more in tune but loose nevertheless. Tilted player fancies himself a knowledgeable player - and I wasn't going to discourage him otherwise. So we see a 5 way flop (BB and SB called) of QJ5 rainbow and tilted loose player leads for $10 into $10. Tilted guy and in tune guy call as do I with my top pair plus backdoors (one diamond on the flop and the backdoor straight). We see a turn of a King and in tune guy leads now for $15 into the burgeoning pot. Tilt guy calls and I call. The river: ten, completing the 4 straight. It checks to me and I think for a bit. I think I'm most concerned about qj but I almost totally discount any of them holding Aces save for A5. They're the types who raise these A/Broadway hands so them limping any of those is highly improbable. On that same thought, I can discount kq because they'd raise those hands as well. What I don't think about are q9 and x9 hands that came along with the flop and turn... it just doesn't seem reasonable. The other thought is how much can I bet to get what now seems like weak hands to call? And if they raise I can get out without too much hurt?
I opt to keep inline with the established pattern and bet out $20. I get called by both spots and "in tune" guys shows Kx while tilt guy shows J5 for a flopped two pair. Lol wut? I expected one call not both... is this thin or is this just plain crazy and I got lucky that they had the perfect hands for my hand? Comments?
The value bet in the second hand is very well done. It feels like one of the two loose guys would have led into you on the river if they had made broadway. These types would be worried about the missed value if you were to check behind. Thanks for sharing.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the comment. On the second hand, I debated betting $30 or more, given the size of the pot ($75). I thought about what would get crying calls from these guys - I probably could have squeezed out $25 instead, but I think $30 would have looked too much like I had the A or 9, and given these guys' play, I didn't want to dissuade them from making the call.
ReplyDeleteWhy are we not raising the BTN with QTdd?
ReplyDeleteI'm abivalent with respect to the river. Frankly, if I am betting here I do think we get called by worse a lot and I think almost all shitty players are betting straights here. Betting is fine IMO though I wouldn't go too crazy with it.
@ sizing. I like smaller bets in spots like this since I think it will encourage getting called in 2 spots where we can get the same value at 1/2 the bet size. In other words, it seems easier to get 2 to call $20 here than get 1 to call $40 (though in reality the J5 hand is calling any bet I suspect)
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting hand 2. In regards to hand 1, I usually find a value bet there. In hand 2, i usually play pretty quickly, and I think my standard here would be to check behind. But if I were to slow down a bit and really think it through I might be able to find a value bet. So to me, its a good lesson on remembering to really think each decision through --- because ultimately these are the types of situations that provide the profits that separate a decent player from a true earner.
ReplyDelete@davidmartin - That's exactly right. I think finding value like this is an important differentiator between average and maximizing. I also agree with Brian's assessment that betting $20 and getting at least one caller is a lot easier than betting $40 and getting one caller. In this case, small value ($20) = $40 profit on the end from a little limped pot.
DeleteAs far as not raising QTs on the BTN, there were so many limpers and tilt guy had shown repeatedly that he would never back down and call down very light that I didn't really want to get involved with a HUGE PF pot, where he would be firing $50-60+ on the flop with his hand. He also showed the ability to limp big hands to trap.
This is completely standard for your blog, but anyone who bets -- ever -- with not one not two but THREE other players in there where an Ace suddenly wins on the river, is a laughable monkey. Your writing about "razor thin value" and such probably makes you feel all smart inside, but rest assured, your play on this hand was basically as bad as your play on every other hand you post here. Just unthinkably, unimaginably bad. Could it really even be possible that out of three other players who have stayed in until the river, not one of them has any Ace? How likely is that really? Not in the fake world of your made-up results, but in the real world of this thing called poker. Do you think about this stuff at all before you just button-mash your way to loss after loss after loss?
ReplyDeleteThe low limit games everywhere are simply chock full of people who cant'd fold decent hands when the river obviously (and I do mean obviously here) turned a winner into a loser.
You are a terrible player. I've posted this about 50 times on your blog over the past few years (most of which you fail to ever post, hmmmmmm), but the way that you constantly post horrifically bad hands and spin them as good, thinking plays by you (they are neither, believe me) is the stuff of unintentional comedy legend. I mean, as bad as you play these hands in the first place, the just unbeleivable part to most of us is that you constantly post them as examples of what you clearly think are good plays. How does someone get to be ths bad at this game?
No go on and delete away. Just knowing that YOU read my post and are bothered enough by it is all I need and more. It's almost better that you never actually post my comments publicly. But you just been served. Again.
So happy that you can hide behind the Anonymous moniker. For the record, the only comments I delete are those who spam - which I'm not affected by all that often.
DeleteNow, to your response: your analysis is about as 1st level as it gets. You talk about how bad the players are but call me bad for reading the situation correctly. Seriously? I'm not quite sure how to logically respond since your comment is illogical.
I appreciate your thoughts of my being a terrible player; I guess I've been waiting for 7+ years for the other shoe to drop, since I guess I've been lucky all this time... To be honest, your posts seem to have a tone of deeply seeded resentment and jealousy. I don't know whether you've ever played the game, and if you have - I'd assume that you're not a winning player. Perhaps you're break even but lie to yourself and tell yourself that you're a winner, just unlucky. Keep believing that; it's how I profit from people like you.
I've wasted enough time responding. Peace.
Would it really change anything if I did not post as "Anonymous" and instead provided you a name that means nothing to you? Seriously, I wish you would think about this stuff before you just post. Call me "Al" if it really matters to you -- you would not recognize my handle if you saw it, so I might as well be "Anonymous" because you have no clue who you are talking to or who is talking to you regardless. But I have played with you before so I knows that of which I speaks.
DeleteI notice that you did not respond to the substance of my post at all. Hmm.
Suffice it to say, your results would greatly improve if you literally blind-folded Every Single Time you are in against three other players to 5th street and an unhappy river card makes it so that any Ace wins. It is nearly impossible for you to win in that spot, so why play it, lose it, and then change the facts so that you can post it on this blog for others to read? Next time, just make the literal most obvious fold in world history, and move on to the next hand. Seriously -- I am an actual winning player, and I can say with absolute sincerity that I make a fold just like this -- when I know the river just beat me even though I have been ahead on every street before that and correctly charged my opponents to draw at poor odds -- probably once every couple of hours in every session I play. If you play well, you will run into this about that often since you are often in there ahead and since other players will generally chase with anything drawable.
So next time, don't sit around thinking about it forever, don't convince yourself that not one, not two but three players seeing the river all do not have a single Ace -- which is an utterly ludicrous thought on your part -- and instead, just fold. The irony of you of all people posting this unbelievably obvious fold and justifying it as a call, when this blog is just chock full of horrifying examples of you folding strong hands to even the slightest bet from your opponent as you automatically tend to fear that your up against the mortal nuts every time you see a bet or raise, is enough to kill a person.
1. The decision was to bet / check, not to call / fold. That decision is the very definition of "thin value betting." More to the point, very rarely will a player at 1/2 check / raise the river. I pointed out my biggest fear: 9x - particularly Q9. The two hands that generally beat me here are A5 and Q9.
Delete2. I'm not sure how you figure that this is a losing hand when - not one, but TWO players "looked me up" for an additional $40 to my stack - made a call of my $20 small value bet.
3. Again, you hide behind the anonymity of the internet. You claim to have played with me; if you played with me, you'd know I'm a winning player and wouldn't make the claims you've made. You realize that you discredit yourself every time you post a comment.
4. I'm done wasting my time respond to your continually empty claims of BS.
I have played with you and I know you are a losing player. You still wont even admit that it's a terrible call against three players when any single Ace suddenly wins at the river! Why are we even having any further discussion?
ReplyDeleteStill don't get the point about me "hiding behind the anonymity of the internet". How is this any different than if I used my handle of "AlpachinkDE"? Now you suddenly know all about me? What is the point of that whole objection?
I'm glad that you know I'm a losing player; that's nice. The part I don't understand is if you are really that thick that you believe this to be a "terrible call against three players" when I'm *not* the one facing a bet? My decision is to bet or check; not call, raise or fold. That concept should not be too hard for an experienced player like yourself to understand.
DeleteAs far as the anonymous comments, you still have not said who you are; if we've played together, I'd surely remember you for the fish you are. It would be nice to place the frame of reference so that I can recall how awful your play undoubtedly is.
There is no justification for betting or calling in that spot on the river. You just lost, someone just made a straight on the river, and theyre obviously not folding no matter what. So maybe instead of focusing on the bet vs call distinction (which is meaningless in light of the hand example you gave), you could take a moment to consider how bad of a play you made there. I mean how truly, indefensibly bad. And in fact, betting out as you so quickly point out is a much worse move than calling given the situation, so thanks for clarifying. You had a possibility of seeing a showdown with two pairs not even including the top pair on the board, on a 4-straight high-card board with any Ace making a straight for someone, and 4 players in at the river. And what do you do with that possible chance to see a free showdown? You bet out!
ReplyDeleteI have played with you before -- hence how I found out about your little website here -- but you do not know who I am and there is no way I could identify myself to you with words. You might or might not recognize my face. So what do I have to do, send you a picture in order to not be "taking advantage of the anonymity of the internet"? Sigh.
I am wavering back and forth as to which point is dumber -- you insisting that I identify myself specifically on your public internet website, or the fact that you still will not consider that betting out on the river when someone obviously made a straight with any Ace in a 4-freaking-way pot is an complete momo move. It's so bad that I don't really believe you even made that play, it is just too thoughtless, even for you. And I have seen you lay down to some of the worst, most obvious bluffs in poker history, and even in light of that, theres is just no way you actually bet out in that spot.
@Anon lulz at your "superior" poker knowledge yet you a) troll a poker blog that has nothing to do with you b) admit to playing with OP meaning you are a 1/2 player. I would think someone with your expertise would see the folly of not utilizing you skill set at higher stakes where you can earn more per hour. I play 2/5 and 5/10 at the Chuck and P-Ville 2x a week. You are certainly welcome to join me and others whenever you wish.
ReplyDeleteOne clarification, you dismiss the difference between calling and betting when OP is last to act. This indicates to me a fundamental flaw in your poker thinking as the difference is rather drastic. And just so I'm clear, you state that a 1/2 player is never folding a straight even a 4 liner on the board. I happen to agree with you but am curious are these fish simply checking straights for some reason? Does not compute
I'm not commenting on the hand specifically. Think you can read my posts above for my feeling. Just commenting on your lol troll efforts! Super stuff and gl at the tables Anon
Tnx for the comment, Brian. I exhausted my thoughts with the troll above & stopped replying. I'll post his "content" so long as it moves the discussion, but I just sorta gave up in responding.
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