Wednesday, February 2, 2011

What would you do? #218 - Fold KK PF?

I'm getting back into Rush poker a bit after watching Veneer's 25NL Rush Cardrunners video.  An interesting read, if you're so inclined, is about his $200 -> $10K bankroll challenge.  Check it out.

Following is from Rush poker $25NL:

Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Hand History Converter

MP2: $9.75
CO: $10.92
BTN: $25.00
SB: $6.62
BB: $25.00  - 12/9 / 2.3% 3bet / 0% squeeze @ 107 hands
UTG: $32.60
UTG+1: $31.09
UTG+2: $61.69
Hero (MP1): $30.57

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is MP1 with Kh Kd
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, 4 folds, BB raises to $2.50, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $6.25, BB raises to $25 all in, 1 fold

I think this is the first time I've ever 3bet folded KK PF.  This guy's stats are so strong that he's repping AA and only AA.  If it helps my case, this was the 2nd time he 3bet in all of the hands I've seen with him.
Final Pot: $12.60


  1. very close. You can construct a 2.6% range with AA/KK/QQ and AK, in which your KK is a 57/42 favorite. You can also leave AK out and go down to AA-TT.

    My KK ran into AA 5 times last month, so I probably fold and laugh.

  2. Of course, it should be noted that I post this WWYD because I fully expect there to be a TON of disagreement. I think this is a push / call at FR, but a fold at Rush.

  3. Someone like this will probably fold everything but aces when you make it $6 to go. It sounds completely silly, but why not just flat the raise OOP?

    * you can spike a K
    * you can flop some silly QJT monotone board for many backdoor outs
    * he'll probably stack off with QQ/JJ on low, dry boards b/c you didn't repop pre.
    * you can rep a small pocket pair that spikes whatever the flop comes, cram over his flop c-bet and see if he gets stupid and folds, or spite calls with AK.
    * and if you still feel like you're getting that 1 in 20 cooler of running kings into aces, fold the flop and save your stack.

    I guess what I'm saying is, if villain is that nitty, why give him a chance to get it in preflop with the nizzles, when you might be able to force a mistake from him postflop?

    It's rare that I try to get anyone to dump 100BB into a cash game pot preflop, especially in Rush, because so many players will only do it with AA and maybe KK.

  4. @Heffmike- Agreed. Flatting the 3bet is the better play here AGAINST THIS PARTICULAR OPPONENT. I like and agree with all of the points that you make - particularly with regard to flopping a OESD or set. I definitely wasn't thinking that fully into the derivatives of the hand post flop; more concerning myself with determining his range PF; i.e. AA. Obviously, this is a very specific situation, but I will consider the approach outlined next time.

    I hold a tremendous advantage over this type of opponent when I see a flop:
    A. I'm in position.
    B. I can show a wider range given my stats that he sees on me.

    Thanks; your comment was helpful.

    As an aside - I'm kinda shocked at this point. I figured it would be a landslide "how can you fold KK PF?!?!??!" I was expecting Hoyazo to be first in line :-). I'm going to count your comment as .5 in favor, so it's 1.5 to 0 in favor of ditching (not including me in the poll).

  5. @Heffmike - One more thing: since you're down the street from me, do you want to get together for lunch one day at Wegmans? I've never met any blogger in person.

  6. Don't 4bet if you're not going to get it in. Flat his 3bet pre and play a pot

  7. "Don't 4 bet if you're not going to get it in" - I completely disagree. There are many reasons to 4 bet, and I hope that you're missing the latter part of the sentence as "Don't 4 bet with KK if you're not going to get it in."

    There are many reasons to 4bet. I can, and have 4 bet bluffed many times - whether it be to a steal defend 3bet, or a BTN 3betting my EP raise. Doing regression tests on my HEM database, I find my 4bet selection to be profitable; i.e. I've made more money 4betting and getting folds than 4betting and having to fold myself to a 5bet / shove.

    With regards to this particular situation, I've committed 20% of my stack at this point, but by no means am I committed to the hand [against this particular opponent].

    It's a catch-22 with this situation, even taking into account what HeffMike commented: If I flat BB's 3bet, then I'm not going to have an idea as to where I am on the flop without flopping an OESD or 3 flush or set. I am trying to get most of the money in, PF against lesser holdings: AK, QQ, etc. I see a lot of out of position flatting of a 4bet from my opponent with those types of hands rather than stacking off, which is completely exploitable play IMO.

    Lastly, it serves pointing out that perhaps right or wrong, but I'm more likely to stack off AK in this particular situation than KK. My logic, sound or not, is due to the card removal effect, the chance of the villain showing up with AA KK is reduced due to card removal effect; i.e. 6 combos of hands for AA and 6 for KK possible.

    When I get home, I will do the PokerStove "thing" to see which has greater equity, KK vs AA|KK|QQ|AK or AK vs AA|KK|QQ|AK. In fact, after carefully thinking about it, I'd imagine that KK has greater equity against that range (which makes the prior paragraph sound utterly stupid :-) ), though both have crap equity if you remove the QQ portion of the range.

  8. I agree with Anon here. 4b folding KK effectively turns this hand into a bluff. Having said that the 5b does give you add'l info here that leads to villain likely having AA. But I think flatting is far and away the better answer against an uber nit.

    As played I don't think I am folding. Too many combinations of JJ, QQ, AK maybe AQ or TT to fold when only 100bb deep.

  9. 4b/f is the worst option by a long long way... you can make a case for either flatting the 3b or 4b/c and I don't feel too strongly either way, but if you are gonna 4b/f KK you might as well have air instead given he is almost always gonna play shove or fold vs a 4b OOP

  10. Good fold.....I play rush and that's AA all the time
    ......I also agree w the 4 bet because villian will 3 bet AK and QQ and prob flat your 4 bet....I am also doing the Vermeer challenge and finished up 13 buyins at 10nl......all the money at rush at these stake IMO comes from the discipline folds and exploiting the short stacks


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