Monday, November 21, 2016

What would you do – A blatant violation of the rules

The setting: My typical Thursday night session at the ‘Shoe

The scenario: A dealer flouts the rules

The question: What would you do?  Would you speak up?  Follow up?

Over the past few sessions, I’ve become accustomed to my strong hands no longer being winners by the flop, turn or river.  This session was no exception, where, within 3 orbits, I saw my KK go down in flames when:
  1. I get it in pre-flop to action where EP raises to $10, older guy raises to $30.  I look down at KK and 4bet to $85.  EP thinks & shoves for $310 effective.  Older guy pauses for a good minute before finally making the call for around $200.  Action to me.  I decide I can’t fold KK and make the call.  I ask if EP has AA – I’m sure given the pause – that older guy has QQ, JJ.  EP says no, leading me to believe I’m ahead until a Ten hits the turn and EP flips TT for the win.  Older guy shows QQ and I just shake my head.  LOL 5bet shoving TT FTW!  It's always good there, amiright?
  2. I get in on the turn for $150 to a gambler Asian guy who doesn’t seem to understand hand strengths, as he turns a gutter and 2 pair draw with T9 vs. my KK on a T 7 x 6 board.  The action, BTW, went PF raise to $20 after 2 limpers – he calls with T9o.  He c/c’s $45 on the flop.  He snaps the turn gutter for a slight overbet of $150 into the $135 pot.  8 on the river, easy game.
I find myself down ~2 buy-ins for the night.  My session, however, is not the focus of this story.  Dealers rotate through and one of my two most despised dealers pushes in.  To be clear, this dealer represents himself as a pure rules guy.  Now, I can definitely appreciate a rules-oriented dealer; all I ask for is a set process, and even-handed application of the rules to all parties continually.  This guy is inconsistent.  He’s moody.  He’s monotone.  He doesn’t give people a chance to act before telling them it’s their action.  He’ll call out for blinds to be posted as said blinds are reaching for chips.  He represents himself as a rule follower and insists on all players following rules to the letter of the law.  All of this sounds pretty innocuous, but he's a real miserable prick.  He tilts me ever so slightly, but I tend to ignore him as a defense against my tilt.  Lately, I've been considering sitting out during his downs.

2 people limp and there’s a raise on the button.  The blinds call and one of the limpers call.  There’s a lot of talk at the table, and I, of course, am involved.  FWIW, I folded my hand, but I’m following the action as I follow the conversation.  Action has yet to close, pending the final limper’s call, a middle aged lady.  There’s an unusual delay between her action, and the dealer proceeds to put out a flop.  The flop is out and action is still pending the lady, who opts to call after seeing the flop.  No one says anything.  I ask the dealer what’s going on; action is still pending yet he put out a flop.  He replies “no problem; she called, so all is good.”

All is definitely not good, however.  I point out that she called only after seeing a flop.  He stays fixed to the point that she called, so the pot is good – move on.  I don’t move on; I continue to point out that she got to see a flop first, before calling pre flop.  That is an unfair advantage, and against the rules.  In the meantime, post flop action continues and the button lines up a sizeable bet.  Finally, the dealers pauses the action and calls floor.

The dealer tells floor, since The Poker Meister has a complaint, he can explain what happened.  “Floored” (pun intended) by the dealer’s lack of wont to own the mistake, I’m forced to become the villain at the table, breaking up a hand where I’m not even involved.  (The flop was JJx, and the BTN was clearly happy with that flop.  The lady got pissed at me for "ruining" the hand that she changed tables after the incident.)  Even after explaining in clear terms what happened, the dealer does not recognize his mistake, only offering that it was noisy and there was a lot of background conversation ongoing.  Totally inexcusable in my book.  First, I should not be explaining what happened; dealer is the keeper of order at the tables.  He should not only be paying attention, but also recognize issues that may arise, and own his or her mistakes.  Second, mistakes are bound to happen.  Depending on the size of the mistake, either rectify the situation yourself (i.e. something minor like incorrect change, or out of turn action) or call floor (i.e. something major like dealing a card out of turn, or clarity of a particular rule).  Third, don’t try to cover up your mistake by bullying your customers.  Not that he was trying to intimidate me, but he definitely pressed me pretty hard to move on – something I was clearly not going to do.

So I ask, in summary: You’re in my seat.  You’re watching (in my opinion, an egregious) rules violation.  You’re not involved in the particular hand, but you see someone who has a clear advantage over the rest of the table – and the dealer wants to overlook the situation.  Do you speak up?  What would you do?

12 comments:

  1. evidently the dealer either wanted to get laid, or shes a big tipper.

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    1. I don't know her but I've seen her before- pretty sure he wasn't trying to get laid; she was pretty fugly

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  2. Ok first of all....you were felted twice with the dreaded pocket Kings?

    Sorry man, but welcome to my world.

    Now, that dealer's behavior was awful, he probably should be written up and/or fired. You did the right thing. I am curious as to how it was handled? Was the flop picked up and reshuffled and redealt (after the lady decided to call or fold before she saw the new flop?). I think that's would should have happened.

    I think you probably should have gotten up after the hand was over and spoken to the floor privately, perhaps even asked to speak to the shift manager. Of course the dealer should have called the floor, explained it himself, immediately after you pointed out that the flop had been dealt before all the action was over.

    Actually, was the lady a novice? Unless she was angle shooting she should have attempted to stop the dealer from putting out the flop before she completed her action.

    Just a really bad situation all the way around. I'd actually consider emailing the poker room manager, describing what happened and saying you are thinking of not returning there.

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    1. Typing comments from my phone - sorry for lack of punctuation / spelling. floor came over and upon hearing what happened had the 3 cards shuffled back in and a new flop was dealt. The burn card was left out fwiw. This is standard procedure at the shoe. They also pulled aside the dealer after his down and I think they will talk to him again outside of his shift

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  3. You put in a lot of effort and let's say you did the right thing. Will you be ok if the dealer gets fired? And, how will you feel playing at the Shoe going forward? I think, I would feel weird playing there in the future and all the dealers knowing I was the guy (that wasn't in the hand) that got one of their coworkers fired. I'm not saying you did anything wrong but going forward it might not seem right either.

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    1. I wouldn't expect the dealer to get fired over a single mistake like this. If anything this should be a learning experience or a summation of prior events leading to his being fired. Personally I'm fine going back there; the dealers know me to be a straight player who is looking out for the integrity of the game. I suppose most of the dealers - if not all - wouldn't react in his way.

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    2. Sounds like all will be fine then. Let us know how it goes next time he sits down to deal to you!

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  4. I'm all for being social but when it boils down to it poker is an individual game and applying that thinking to this situation I would have acted in the same way you did IF I was one of the participants in the actual hand. If I was not in the hand though I would have said nothing. If a player who already has money in the hand preflop isn't willing to speak up himself/herself I would not feel a responsibly to right a wrong.

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  5. One thing I thought of after posting my original comment....suppose this dealer was on "the edge." Maybe he'd had a few incidents of making mistakes on his record, and he felt that one more would have been the straw that broke the camel's back, ie, one more mistake and he'd be fired. Just suppose, anyway. Maybe that's why he tried so hard to move on with the hand without calling the floor and fixing it. Sure a one time mistake is no big deal, but if he had a few incidents on his recent record, he possibly could be worried about getting in deeper trouble. Just a thought.

    Anyway, your post here inspired my current blog post, Poker Meister! You can see it here:

    https://robvegaspoker.blogspot.com/2016/11/i-still-shouldnt-have-to-say-raise.html

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    1. If I'm the tipping point for him and it means the last straw, so be it. If it doesn't happen during my down then it will be some other victim. He's established he's not a good dealer even with his supposed strict adherence to the rules. I feel no guilt if he does get fired. Cold? Perhaps. It's going to happen eventually until he learns.

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  6. I would have spoken up, have done so many times in similar situation. I have never seen a dealer react so poorly though.

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  7. I played on electronic poker tables for two years. I personally love them. Why? Lower rake. Faster play. ZERO DEALER MISTAKES. Impossible to play out of turn; split pots are never screwed up; split pots take 1 second to correctly split. Other players chip stacks are always calculated correctly. Pot size is always correct.
    Above all else, I repeat ZERO DEALER MISTAKES.

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