First hand is from said guy from above. He sits down and is aggro from the start... I'm like - "look out; strap in and get ready!" He starts out by raising his first 3 hands, one of which was a 3bet, taking all down without a flop. He's opening with exploitative raise sizes, consistently ($20 opens, $30 opens, etc. and bombing all 3 streets) I actually think I saw him go to showdown with very weak holdings - 84 or something - prior to the first hand where I get into it.
I limp QJo from UTG and as scheduled, he raises to $18. All fold to me and I call. Flop is Q 8 3. He leads for $40 and I call. Turn is a 7 or something; I check / he leads for $65. I call again. River is a blank and he shoves all in for $150 or close to. I snap and he shows QTcc; I scoop and he's mystified, not understanding how my kicker played for my scoop.
Next hand, I raise ATo for $23 from the BTN into 6 limpers, including the aforementioned guy. He calls along side a loose player who's getting extremely lucky; we'll get into that loose player in a moment. Anyway, flop comes A J 9 and it checks to me. I lead for $40 and get calls from both spots. Turn is a K and it checks to me again. I put out $75 which the fish snaps off, but the loose player folds (what he later claimed to be A5o). River is a blank and I'm sure this fish is calling any bet, so I ship which may have been around $120 effective. He snaps it off and I flip my pair of Aces; he auto mucks (I assume he didn't even have an Ace).
3rd hand against him, I limp / call 34cc along side 3 others against his $18 raise. I call for a host of reasons, though mainly, he's spewing and I want to be in as many pots as I can against him. Clearly the other cold callers feel the same way, and since I close the action with my call, I am getting a nice price to see a flop. Flop comes all rags: 3 2 7 rainbow. He leads for $40 and I'm 85% certain I have the best hand so I call. Turn is a 7, completing the rainbow board, and like a clock, he ticks away to $65 on the turn. My certainty of the best hand has now improved to 95% in my mind, but I don't want to raise him off his bluffs, so I call again. River is a 3 improving me to bottom boat (3's full of 7's) and now I have a snap call situation if he opts to bluff his third street. Without fail, he does - $120 or so - and I snap; he shows 95dd for a missed(?) pair draw(?). He cannot comprehend how I call the flop and turn with a pair of 3's. I cannot comprehend how he can't comprehend my play...
4th and final hand is a bit dirty, I have to admit. I think I'm making a so-so call, but I'll present the evidence first: I again raise to $25 from the BTN with ATo. I'm facing 6 limpers - and the fish is one of 'em! I get called in around 3 spots; we see a flop of J 9 3ss. I hold the Ace of spades. It checks to me and I cbet $65. The fish is in EP and he thinks for awhile before shoving $160 effective. It folds back to me; $325 in the pot facing a $100 call. It's close; I have 2 backdoor draws - the straight draw + flush draw, in addition to very possibly having the best hand against this particular player. He's spewy and dumping chips right & left - to me in particular! He wants to get me. After it's all said and done, it's $100 to win $325, so I make the call. Board runs 8 7 rainbow and I'm shown J 8 for the turned 2 pair. I flip the ATo straight and he's through the roof. He immediately exits the table in disgust.
Long post, sorry. However, here's the hand of the night; a "what would you do moment." I look down at KK UTG and open to $15. 2 callers; a tight straight forward player and the aforementioned loose player (both in the blinds). This loose player calls a wide range PF, but tightens up a bit post flop; he's not a maniac and generally knows where is in the hand after post flop play. Still, he calls wide with poor odds, but he's been rewarded quite frequently, stacking with hands like 97o against $20+ PF raises, etc. Anyway, the flop comes 3 6 9 dd and it checks to me. I lead for $30, the tight player calls for less ($28) and the loose player calls. He has me covered, playing $250 effectively. The turn is a 7 and he checks again. I lead for $60, putting him on a flush draw, but he check/raises me to $150. What would you do? Shove or fold? Thoughts?
That QJ v. QT hand is a thing of beauty. Nothing like a guy willing to throw money around without knowing the rules.
ReplyDeleteNice to be at a table with a player so clueless.
ReplyDeleteI cannot comprehend how he can't comprehend my play..
ReplyDeleteLOL, love it.
Do you hold the king of diamonds?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe I do, but very rarely at this level are any players semi-bluffing turns. I 100% don't put him on a diamond draw with his check/raise.
DeleteYou do or don't put him on a flush draw? In your post I think you said you do.
DeleteOK, here we go. I think J,J+ would three bet pre. 4,5 would check raise and 10,10 could also on the turn. Ad,8d would rather see the river for cheap. Random 2 pair or 8,10 is unlikely.
I'd call it off with $315 in the pot and $145 behind (if my math is correct).
I should be more careful with my words; I bet $60 putting him on a flush draw, but with his check / raise, I can almost 100% rule out his flush draw. From watching him play for the prior hours, he's always aggressive when he believes he has the nuts & always passive with the draws.
DeleteOK. We'll put the tight player on a draw or A,9. The loose player would lead turn to protect against draws, I would think. Why would he check the turn and then raise. Many cards on the river are bad for him that letting you peel doesn't make sense. Unless he thinks you are barreling with air, the only other possibility is a very strong hand like 4,5 or 6,7...you folded.
Delete@Ace - I did wind up folding to my opponent's 45o.
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DeleteGood fold, got into a hand at the MGM...any advice on the hand? check out the new post on my blog
DeleteI feel like the takeaway from this hand is: beware Ed Miller's voluntary bet. A few issues ago in Card Player magazine, Ed Miller wrote a piece about when a player bets optionally rather than just calls. There's a difference between being "pot committed," which this player wasn't, and making a voluntary raise, which this player was doing. Very often, players at the small stakes make these voluntary bets / raises that are very slanted towards value. Obviously, you need to be aware of the player types before making a distinction, but seeing a player like this seemingly never raise a draw, it becomes quite apparent that he puts in "voluntary raises" with what he perceives to be the best hands.
DeleteTrue, he was showing strength. So would you have folded on the turn $100 bet or a river bet?
DeleteI think if he calls the turn, I check the river regardless, but if he bet the turn, I consider raising.
DeleteOh, I think we are talking about two different hands
DeleteGotcha; I thought you were talking about the hand I described above. I will leave a comment on your blog about the hand you described.
DeleteCertainly a close decision.
ReplyDelete1. I agree that typical players raise turn with good made hands. (good overpairs: oddly played QQ, AA; sets: 33, 66, or 99; two pair: 63, 96, 93?; straights: 45, 58?, 58dd? T8?, T8dd?). You are behind many of those--barring a river board pairing or river K. Since you raised UTG, he should peg you for a good hand. So, other value raises (TT, JJ, A9, K9) are rare unless he pegs you as a maniac.
2. Certainly, he has many combos of semi-bluffs on the turn: both combo draws (A8dd, Q8dd, J8dd, 84dd?), pair plus draws (J9dd, A3dd, A6dd, A9dd, ,98, 87, 86, 75, 34, …) and naked draws (Adxd, QJdd, JTdd, J9dd, ….). You are ahead of these, but he still has decent equity against you for some of the better ones. You have no blockers to any of these draws (KxKy, no diamond), so that allows for many of these combos to be in his hand. But, the other (tight, all-in) player may block some of those, so the number of combos may be reduced somewhat.
3. If he was semi-bluffing, however, the pot was $103 when he raised ($133 if you count his call). Your effective stack is down to $205 before he bets, so a shove on his part would not have been a massive overbet. If he was semi-bluffing, wouldn’t he want to maximize his fold equity and just shove turn? His bet sizing (from my experience) seems to indicate more of a value raise.
4. From my analysis above, it’s still a close decision. I would want to know how he played the 97o hand you referenced earlier. Did he take the same betting line? Was it a similar situation? You mentioned that he was not as loose or aggressive postflop. If that’s the case, he may not be bluffing here.
5. Your answer to #4 may sway my decision, but I would chose to fold. However, as an added bonus in this spot, you are already all-in with the other player. So, you will see the hand when he shows it down for the main pot—allowing you to sleep at night. :-)
@BiggBlind722 - I think every single one of your points is exactly valid, which is why I folded. Ironically, I was up against AA from my all in opponent [who just called my raise] and the check/raiser showed 45o for the scoop.
DeleteWith the 97o line, he raised the initial raiser / called a 4bet I think.
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