Monday, June 1, 2015

Thursday's session summary

Nothing much to talk about from last week's session.  I was playing well, but variance was certainly my enemy.  I had a bunch of stupid hands where they should have held and / or won, but suckouts got the better of me.  I'm going to post them as whining, just to get them off my chest.

Hand 1: Terrible player limps and it limps 5-way with a Q Q 7 flop (I hold KQ from mid position).  Checks to BTN who leads for $10 and calls around to me - I raise to $25.  BTN calls as does 1 other player.  Terrible player raises to $110 and it folds out the field; I just call.  Turn is a 4 and he shoves for $160 - I call and am shown QJo.  River: 4.  Puke - we chop.

Hand 2:  Same terrible player as above calls a raise for $10 as do I with KJo on the BTN and we see a Jc8c9s flop.  Original raiser plus others check to me & I lead for $45 into $55.  Terrible player calls.  Turn is a blank and I lead for his remaining stack, $110.  He snap calls.  River is a Qx and he shows Qc5c for the winner.

Hand 3: Limps 8-way around to me in the BB and I look down at JJ.  I raise to $30.  UTG calls ($12 behind - yes $12!!! behind), folds around to another shorty who calls ($35 behind - yes $35!!! behind) and finally competent player in SB calls.  I love how a limp is worth the same as a $30 call, but standard - whatevers...  Anywho, flop comes AcTc5 and I'm basically checked out of this hand.  SB checks, I check, shorty shoves for $12 ($12!!! - yes $12!!!), other bad player just calls, as does SB - I decide to call and pray for my J.  No such poker luck - 9s on the turn and it checks to the remaining short stack who shoves for the remaining $22 - check / raised by SB, and I fold.  River a Ten and SB shows Ts9s for the boat, first shorty doesn't show - he had a small pocket pair (which idiot should have shoved PF), and second shorty shows Ad4d.  Facepalm - these are idiots who have to actively manage breathing on a regular basis...  It just pisses me off that not only did A4 get there on me, but T9 who I have crushed totally nutted on me.  No fault of the T9 guy, but still - the awful play is just... well... awful!

Otherwise, there was one hand of note which wasn't even really an eye raiser:
I'm sitting at the table with a favorite fish of mine.  At this point in the night, I actually just moved tables to be with my fish, who invited me over to his table.  This guy loves to bet bet bet and push the table around.  You can sit on a set with him and he'll bet it for you.  I've taken to flat calling him more often than raising him and getting aggressive with him because I feel like he bluffs far more frequently than bets his draws / value hands.

Regardless, he leads UTG for $15 and I flat with AKo after the competent player above flats.  I think 5 see a flop of 5c6cKd.  Now my friend the fish is not dumb enough to try to bluff out 5 other players unless he has a significant hand, but he checks the flop.  Competent player - who I read to be a serious player in all of the 3-4 hands I have on him at this point - leads for $25 into the $60 pot - weak sauce.  I raise him to $75 which folds out the table back to him.  He shoves over for $165 more.

Thoughts?  FWIW, I folded.

Oh yeah - as I'm cashing out, I found a $25 green chip on the floor!  Woot woot free moneys!!!!  And, to add free money to free money, I got my $25 weekly bet promotion bonus (the 'Shoe is giving me $25 / week for May and [at least] June) PLUS a one-day offer of a $25 promotional chip on this past Friday.  I wound up playing until around 12:30 AM and picked up my free money - on the $50 in bets, I won a whopping total of $15 at roulette :-(.


  1. these are idiots who have to actively manage breathing on a regular basis

    They only breath when they are not drooling.

  2. raise/folding AK on that board I am not a fan of at all. Particularly when we just flatted pre.

    1. And I wasn't a fan either, which is why it was something I made note of. I actually stopped to think about raising to $60 or so, but opted against it for bigger value on later streets. Having flatted pre masks the strength of my hand on the flop, but how often am I getting 3bet / all in on the flop when TPTK is best? Against that kind of action, worse hands and even sometimes drawing hands are flatting. My read was this villain was not drawing.

  3. I didn't phrase that well. I don't like the raise part of the raise/fold lol. If this were a 3b pot I would be more inclined to raise some donks. Just not sure why we are raising here.

    1. It's a very draw heavy board with the 5c6c out there. I'm facing a $25 bet from the second to act - wouldn't you raise that board for value? Compound that with the fact that the lead just bet $25 into around $60 - that's a very cheap drawing price. There's many straight and flush draws out there that I could be contending with, which is why I raise. What do you think? If I just call, there's like half the deck that I hate to see.

  4. Generally not. When we decided to slow play the pre-flop action we decided not to play a massive pot (at least with one pair). I just don't think the raise accomplishes a ton. Like when he is leading into 5 players on this flop he has a lot of equity here (since you say he is competent). You don't give stack sizes though it appears to be roughly 100BB stacks. IOW I doubt he is leading here with like QTcc but he could be with KcQ/Jc as well as 56, 55, 66 and maybe 78cc, 7c9c and probably the bottom of his range is AcXc.

    If you are going to raise/fold you may as well do it with your entire range rather than something as strong AKo if you are just going to fold to flop bet/3b.

    On turn I am calling almost all blanks but folding some, on river if board is still unimproved I think I fold to the 3rd bet.

    1. I understand what you're saying above though keep in mind that Kc is in my hand so I have the backdoor draw to the second nuts. Stacks were 100BB roughly - I think he started the hand with maybe $255.

      However my rebuttal is as follows:

      So far as raising - I actually disagree about what it accomplishes. If I just call, I let a host of people behind me just call for $25 getting HUGE pot odds to draw to flushes, as well. 78cc, 34cc was the concern that I'm ahead of, but not by much. Otherwise, I think I'm ahead of his entire leading range - He doesn't have a multi-way pair / FD draw because I hold the Kc. He could have a straight / flush draw. Otherwise, he has an overpair which I'm behind, also 56, K5, K6, 55, 66, KQ(?) or a highly unlikely KK. By raising here, I'm adding $50 to an otherwise flop call - and a $50+ turn bet. If I'm ahead on the flop, does my hand improve on the turn ever? I suppose I could improve with a Kx, but there's 2 Aces that are not clubs that will "improve" my hand. Therefore, I have a made hand on the flop and want to get value from worse hands both yet to act, AND against the guy to my right. When everyone else folds and he shoves over a strong 3bet, that narrows his range down considerably to a less likely straight draw, flush draw (because, based on my read he's competent and generally not doing things like pushing a flush draw) or the hands listed above.

      A. From my read, the weighting goes much more towards a made hand that's better than my AKc.
      B. I save money by raise / folding as opposed to just calling the flop $25 and facing a turn bet proportional to a $120+ pot - likely to be greater than $50 while also not getting value out of the 2 players yet to act on the flop.
      C. I probably would raise with most of my range against a $25 lead bet - I would probably just call if I have a flush draw, getting a turn card very cheaply, but I'm likely raising all of my combo draws (straight + flush draws, pair + flush draws, etc.), sets and 2 pair hands.

  5. OK so the Kc eliminates a pair plus type of holding. I still think raise/fold is probably the worst line we can take here.

    If I am raising I am generally raise/calling with these stack sizes. We are talking 85bb preflop after all. Also as a counterargument to your assertion about what the raise accomplishes I would simply state that villain will have 3 possible reactions:

    1) Folds-This seems like a disaster as he isn't folding anything we are beating obv and he isn't bet/folding big drawing hands
    2) Calls-I don't see a ton of hands he is bet/calling with tbh...if he has a big enough hand to lead into 4 people I just don't think there are many calling hands...maybe KQ but that is 1 hand
    3( Raise or jam-Here is where the crux of the problem is for me. If he jams his whole leading range (which you think is fairly wide) then we are folding to a lot of hands that we are ahead of. Given the price the pot is laying us (something between 2.5-1 and 3-1) we only need to be good 25-30% of the time and folding is disastrous IMO.

    Now you say his jamming range is narrower than his leading range and that may be. If that is your read then why raise in the first place? That implies that he has a bet/call range which I just don't see really. I mean he is leading into 4 people I just don't see him slowing down and suddenly raise/calling.

    The stuff about it costing less to raise/fold kinda sounds like "raising to see where we are" which of course I have very strong feelings about :). We are also in position here in a single raised pot so there is some value in that that we throw out the window when we raise/fold.

    There is also a non zero chance you fold out a hand that would have called behind you like KQ or KJ or whatever. Probably not a huge factor but a factor nonetheless.

    I guess I am ambivalent vis-a-vis calling vs. raising though if I raise I am not raise/folding with an 85BB stack.

    1. Sorry it's taken me awhile to respond - been busy with work & school.

      Alright: 1 - yeah, he's not folding what we beat. He isn't folding his draws, either. He's just folding his bluffs which, betting into 5 people, is not very likely.
      2 - Calls... he can call all of his draws, save for his monster straight / flush draws which he may be pushing. He can also call his Ax nut flush and his 78o / 34o. He can also call KQ.
      3 - Raise / jam can do this with all sets (which are going to be common, 55, 66), straight flush draws. I think that's his range of shoving - and I'm discounting the straight flush draws more than the sets. Keep in mind that he bet $25 into a $60+ pot. That's a pretty weak lead in my mind.

      On that point, weak lead --> 3bet shove = baiting generally. I took the bait and he hooked me thought I wriggled away. Yes, correct about folding out worse hands ahead of me, but more often there will be a flush or straight draw calling away and getting cards for cheap.

      I'm not a fan of raising 8BB to 25BB and folding to 55BB additional, but this felt so strong... FWIW, we talked about the hand afterwards as we became more "chummy" and he admitted a set in that spot - whether truthful or not, he did not make any moves like this after it happened, so I tend to believe him.

    2. My thoughts on the last hand was that he had a set. Your fear is that he has a flush draw and is bluffing the pot. It is a situation where are you way behind the majority of the time against a good player. I have to assume your AKo didn't have a club. The problem is that your hand has little room for improvement. I wouldn't like to try and win a big pot with a "bluff catcher". It doesn't make a good story to fold a hand on the flop but unless you have some magical read what else is there to do. Your re-raise of $75 represented a monster hand, which the original raiser made the correct read on by coming over the top and taking the pot.

  6. OK so the Kc eliminates a pair plus type of holding. I still think raise/fold is probably the worst line we can take here.
    Thanks you so much for sharing


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